Host: Michael Corbin
Guest: Richard Hoagland
Transcribed by: JJ Mercieca, Malta UFO Research
Web Page: http://www.waldonet.net.mt/~mufor/
Note From Dave: This is a long file, therefore, it's in two parts.
Please keep this thought in mind as you read this. NASA for years has maintained Richard Hoagland is wrong about Cydonia and the Face on Mars, and the Anomolies on the Moon.
SIXTEEN years ago they said he was wrong about the possibility of primative life on Europa. Are they now trying desperately to avoid having to admit that if he was right about Europa he may also be right about the Moon and Mars ?
Read this interview and draw your own conclusions about what NASA is trying to do. Do you really think not acknowleging Hoagland's 16 year old work anoversight ?
Michael Corbin: My guest tonight is the acclaimed Richard Hoagland who has written about the Monuments of Mars and lots of stuff about the structures on the moon. Recently this press release appeared on his web page, it says that a NASA scientist claimed false credit :
NASA SCIENTIST CLAIMS FALSE CREDIT AT MAJOR 1996
SPACE CONFERENCE FOR RUMORED GALILEO
DISCOVERY OF ALIEN LIFE FORMS AT JUPITER:
RESEARCH ACTUALLY PUBLISHED
16 YEARS AGO BY OTHERS
OBSERVERS SPECULATE ABOUT
"PREEMPTIVE POLITICAL STRIKE"
BY NASA -- ON EVE OF POSSIBLE
GALILEO CONFIRMATION OF PREDICTION
And without further ado I want to introduce my guest tonight .. welcome to the program Richard. There you go Richard, are you there?
Richard Hoagland: I am here
MC: Sorry about that, I have a problem with the equipment tonight. Yes, tell us about this recent development concerning this press release.
RH: Hang on a second. We were informed last week that Steven Squyres, who was a Professor of planetology at Cornell University in New York, had appeared with people like Torrance Johnson and other members of the Galileo team, the NASA unmanned mission currently orbiting Jupiter, in Birmingham, England at the 1996 annual convention of space scientists.
To my amazement, he stood up and gave a paper claiming that he had been thinking, looking, and analysing the 1979/80 voyager data from Jupiter, particularly from Europa, which is one of Jupiter's moons. It had come to him that it was remarkably similar to certain Antarctic analogs with icy ponds covered with ice in which there is a sort of latent non-photosynthetic lifeforms. He put this theory together and presented it at this science conference in Birmingham.
My reaction is INCREDIBLE because 16 years ago this was my idea and concept which we wrote in Star and Sky. At the time, none other than people like Arthur Clarke and Bob Jastrow very kindly acknowledged that this was a pretty neat idea .
In fact, Arthur wrote the sequel to 2001, 2010 Odyssey Two, based around our concept, and kindly so acknowledged this fact.
So, the fact that Dr Squyres would 16 years late come out and claim rather belated credit for an idea and research that was COMPLETELY NOT HIS OWN was pretty amazing. It got me thinking, why would somebody in the science community be dumb enough to steal somebody elses work, unless there is a more remarkable other hidden political agenda, and potentially some announcement to come in the next few days or weeks hence.
MC: And what would that be?
RH: Well the Galileo mission went into orbit around Jupiter on December 7 and we were supposed to get a sequence of very high resolution mosaics of Europa's southern pole. Europa is a little moon of Jupiter about the size of our own moon. It is covered we now estimate with about 60 miles of ice under which there should be an ocean a couple of 100 miles deep surrounding a rocky core. That ocean if it exists according to all the calculations has to have been liquid from the beginning of the solar system. If it is liquid now it's been liquid ocean from the beginning of the planet. That means it is the only other ocean in the entire solar system like earth's ocean which has been liquid which of course got me thinking 16 years ago. Well if you have a liquid environment that old and that long and continueing, then obviously by analogy potentially interesting biological events could have happened in that ocean as occurred in our ocean which has led to you and me talking on the radio tonight.
And it is that set of high res mosaics that NASA was to acquire during the Galileo mission as it arrived on December 7 which rather remarkably and misteriously were suddenly cancelled just a few days prior to their supposed acquisition. If those pictures were in fact not cancelled, if our space agency has one more time not told us the truth as we are in the process of documenting now over and over again and putting on our web site ... then it is very possible that Steven Squyres' attempt to take credit for this idea is predicated on the fact that NASA knows it is a matter of time that this leaks out. That they in fact have confirmed the model of an ocean and lifeforms present on Europa and of course NASA can't allow anyone else other than NASA to find life anywhere in the solar system.
MC: That's very interesting, shades of Mars Observer even.
RH: Well it's shades of Orwell, it's re-writing history, because you see, in the next few weeks according to the published NASA Galileo timelines, the spacecraft is going to encounter Europa again and take more photographs, only this time they will not be able to explain away not taking pictures. So if those pictures demonstrate what we already think they have confirmed i.e. that there is some kind of interesting life living in this posited Europan ocean and I can get into how they could in fact have confirmed that on the first flyby last December ...
MC: OK, we'll hold that for the next segment when we come back from this break.
RH: It's only a matter of time, Michael, until they will be forced to bite the bullet and make the appropriate announcement. Of course you have a huge problem for NASA, because it would be the first confirmation of life outside the earth by anybody at any time.
MC: It's incredible, hold that thought Richard we'll be back after this break.
MC: Writing in acknowledgement of Richard Hoagland's highly original Europa concept, he wrote it in January 1980, inventor of the communications satellite, Arthur Clarke noted in 1982 in his sequel to 2001
"The fascinating idea that there might be life on Europa, beneath ice-covered oceans kept liquid by the same Jovian tidal forces that heat Io, was first proposed by Richard C. Hoagland in the magazine Star & Sky ( The Europa Enigma,' January, 1980). This quite brilliant concept has been taken seriously by a number of astronomers (notably NASA's Institute of Space Studies, Dr. Robert Jastrow), and may provide one of the best motives for the projected GALILEO Mission..."
MC: And again joining us is Richard Hoagland, we're talking about NASA as a plagiarist or are they trying to jump the gun here?
RH: Well I don't think this is one guy falling off the end of the turnip truck and coming up with a late idea not knowing what we have written because I've known Steve Squyres for years now. I was involved in a rather heated debate on Nightwatch, CBS seven years ago regarding Cydonia. We've shared a lot of correspondence and phone conversations and he's been following our work in previous years so i don't think that Steve can claim ignorance to what we have written.
MC: I'm sure not. You are quite a thorn though to NASA.
RH: Well, no. I'm someone, like others, who tries to find and tell the truth. And when you have a space agency founded on lies, which is becoming very obvious that NASA really has some major internal problems with people who don't know how to tell the truth, you know, this is going to eventually trip you up, this is really dumb and stupid, which of course brings to mind the question : is this just stupidity or desperation? Because you see this is a really important break-point.
We at this moment tonight, Michael you know, UFOs and all the conversations that go on on the Internet, Paranet and other programs like yours and on our web sites, all that notwithstanding the mainstream community has yet to admit to one bonafide extraterrestrial discovery of life outside of earth.
RH: If NASA were to announce tomorrow that it had found simple lifeforms swimming in the oceans of Europa there would be headlines 16 miles tall bigger than the spaceships in Independance Day, alright. And whoever proposed that ocean and those lifeforms, would go down .. I mean he would get the equivalent of the Nobel prize if not the Nobel prize itself although astronomy is prohibited from Nobel selection by some curious quirk of Nobel's personal proclivities, physicists can get a Nobel prize but astronomers can't.
So this is not a small and trivial effort to steal someone else's work, this is the big enchilada, this is all they wrote, this is what NASA in the minds of most Americans who have been funding NASA from the beginning, believe this the space agency has really been funded to do : find life outside the Earth. And what I see here is a very interesting and remarkable political attempt at first strike which is they are claiming in Squyres' paper last week to set us up so that Steven, you know, "fathers" this idea, one of their own, and then when they are forced to make the announcement because they couldn't keep this secret when all the new data comes in from Europa in the coming weeks they will be able to look to one of their own and say : "Aren't we all geniuses, isn't it amazing what the tax payer has funded by putting this team together and they're so .. etc.etc.etc"
MC: They come out as a shining star.
RH: Of course, and of course what's really going on, is that if that were to pass unnoticed, which I have news for them, I don't think it's going to work, it will mean that nobody in the press or the scientific community wouldn't ask us how it felt to be right about this and then they wouldn't ask us what it might feel like to feel right about the even bigger problem NASA has i.e. the ruins at Cydonia, the ruins on the moon and all the other things waiting to fall out of the closet if someone puts the microphone over here.
MC: And a bulging closet it is. Let me ask you real quick, just give me your reaction to this. The public has been so conditioned, if NASA annouced the truth about Galileo and Mars Observer you think people will not believe them?
RH: Well it depends, it's like the business with the bombing and the air crashes and all that. There's a certain segment that accept what they see on TV and what they're told. There's another segment, growing thank goodness, that are beginning to ask really fundamental questions. And hopefully there will be enough people asking fundamental questions particularly in the press and the media that the agency cannot get away with this scot free. The fact is that they have more money than we do and money can buy you air-time, it can buy you correspondents, it can buy you producers ...
MC: It can buy you a united front.
RH: ... and they can swamp, they can saturate the talk shows and a lot of other media with their version of the truth, and again I refer back to Orwell and the idea of rewriting history even before it has been written and that's a very blatant effort that is going on here and it's time for people of integrity and honour and principle to simply put their foot down and say "No, not any more!"
MC: I hope that's what's going to happen. You used the word last segment, "confirmed life". Explain to us .. kind of elaborate on that.
RH: Well when I wrote this up which is by the way in full colour and full detail on our web site. If people want to see the original piece that appeared in Star and Sky including some original artwork which we commissioned through Don Davis who is one of NASA's key illustrators. He was working for the USGS when I knew Don years ago. It's all on our web site, you just log on to http://www.enterprisemission.com and follow the clickable links and you'll find Europa and the Europa Enigma and all 15 or 16 pages that I wrote in 1980 which by the way was very hotly contested by NASA at the time. There are AP stories in the archives which you may want to try to find Michael, where NASA scientists were vehemently opposed to our suggestion and they were shooting us down all over. So there are NASA people on record saying it was a dumb, stupid idea and we didn't know what we were talking about.
So were are these same NASA people now that Steven Squyres is out there claiming that this is his idea? It's going to get to be a very interesting can of worms. But as part of our concept we started by looking at the Voyager images coming back from Europa and marvelling at the apparent similarity of this frozen, ice-bound little moon with photographs, aerial and satellite imagery that we have of the Antarctic and the fact that you have ice flows and pressure ridges and cracks and it really looked to me as if you had an analog to an entire earth that would have been frozen, where the oceans would have been still warm and vibrant underneath a covering of ice. Well the only problem with that model is that if you have a planet sealed in ice as it looked initially from the photographs there isn't much chance you will have any life going on there because the ice will preclude the penetration of sunlight except where you have cracks. It was at that point we really made this leap which was, well maybe there is a form of life that is not dependant on the sun, that in fact can be fueled by geothermal sources. This was before Ballard (?) had found with the Alvin, 2 or 3 miles down underneath the Earth's oceans at the Mid-Atlantic ridge, the Pacific rise and at other places these oases of vibrant lifeforms underneath our own oceans that are totally cut off from sunlight and are basically totally dependant on an internal chemo-synthesis of sulphur bacteria, sulpher metabolising bacteria that fuels a whole eco-system.
That literally came out as I was writing this piece and we were able to get a side bar in the article citing this evidence that in fact I might be in fact right about a new source of energy that would fuel an independant alien form of life deep down in the oceans of Europa. So it was a pretty interesting correlation of data and that's why Arthur and Bob Jastrow and some other scientists took a sign to it because it was a really neat piece of science which someone is now trying to rip off for political reasons on behalf of our friendly, neighbourhood space agency.
MC: OK, hold that thought we're going for a break. When we come back I want to talk about another interesting item on your web page, about NASA and some documents you have there. I think it's important that the public know what NASA really is, what its function is because I think it'll surprise some people, it may not surprise others though, but I think it's important in the light of this that we talk about that, so stay tuned, my guest is Richard Hoagland.
VIEW PART 2 OF THE INTERVIEW