Peace Elder, Mary Thunder
Mary Thunder

( Wolf Song and
Crystal Skulls )

Joshua Shapiro

Symbol of the Wolf Song Gatherings

I first met Mary Thunder around Thanksgiving in November of 1988. I was visiting my family in Chicago at the time and my good friend Bill Sawicki of the Floating Center, invited me to give a talk about the crystal skulls. He also published a local newsletter and had printed an article in the current issue. Thunder and her husband horse attended the presentation and I remember talking about 'MAX', the crystal skulls owned by JoAnn & Carl Parks, and that she (not quite sure) either was going to see it or had just seen this crystal skull. We stayed in touch ever since and we were on their mailing list to receive their newsletter "Thunder News", and knew about the Wolf Song Gatherings.

When I heard that Thunder and Horse would be in Chicago this past June, I ran over to Transition Bookstore in Chicago to meet them and say hello (on a Friday night) and then we had dinner the following Monday night. Thunder had agreed to do an interview as I was curious to hear about her work with the Wolf Song Gatherings (always better to speak to a person directly) and what role the crystal skulls that have been present at these gatherings played. On this page, and the second page to continue the interview, was our conversation. I have always felt that Thunder is one of the most dedicated Peace Elders and Lightworkers on the Planet.

Enjoy .... Joshua

(Note: -- This interview is waiting for Mary Thunder to review for final editing, so a few parts were not able to be transcribed, we have decided to share it anyway until the final changes are made. You will notice (XXXX) meaning we could hear from the tape. Thank you ... Joshua )

Interview with Thunder
( June 2nd, 1997, Northwest Suburb of Chicago )

Joshua: Hello Mary Thunder, nice to see you again. Do you like to be called Mary Thunder or Thunder?

Thunder: Just Thunder.

Joshua: OK. Thunder, can you just briefly share who you are, some of your background and what is your current focus, at this time, or what you feel is important.

Thunder: My name is Mary Elisabeth Thunder. And since the late '60's, I have been (running my own hoops?). However in 1980, my life took a different turn, I had a heart attack. This was prophecised by one of my chiefs. A week later I had the heart attack, so when I came back (back from where?) and I said that from then on I would literally sun-dance to thank the creator for my life and share my experience with others.

I guess my focus right now Joshua is (working on my?) awareness, remembering and have tremendously strong and extensive ideas of trying to bring people together in unity. ( Only in what this word copies ?) that there be such a thing. So that's mostly what I am doing now.

I am a sun-dancer. I was named a Peace Elder in 1991 and at this point in my life I was (nominated?) as a delagate to the United Nations. And just recently I returned from France where I was a head delagate for the spiritual (human?) which was headed up by the Dalai Lama and had representatives from all over the world and many of the world's religions. (This conference) was focusing on his dream now, which was to bring all the spiritual people together from all the different religions in the hope that we can learn how to get along and get out of judgement of each other.

Joshua: What happened in France at this conference with the Dalia Lama and the other people who participated?

Thunder: I would imagine there was nearly 75-80 delegates from Catholism to Sufi to Buddhist, to all the major world religions (who attended). (Really) for the first time, the indigenous people from Asia, Africa, really all the five continents, through however (the circumstances) we got together and we were invited and ended up a delegate of the United States. And I was chosen because I am not a full blooded (Native American), but I am trained in my ways as I am a Sun Dancer and of course I am part Indian, but not full blood. So they felt I could be open to all of the various tribes (Native American) here in the United States. Next year I am working on a committee for human rights and issues for women and that is pretty exciting.

Joshua: Thunder, since you have developed contacts with many Native Americans, what do you feel is the message the Native Americans wish to communicate to the rest of the world in regards to their sensing of events that maybe coming up in our future?

Thunder: Well the prophecies themselves especially taking a look at the Hopi Prophecy, which is a pretty amazing prophecy if we follow it to the Lakota and the birth of the White Buffalo which was, I believe was on July 20th, 1994. And if we just come on right on through all the religions, for example, we just heard a prophecy from the man who is the head of Voodoo on the planet who shares the same prophecy, they all say the same words. That we have to become One Mind, One Heart and get it together before the new millenium or decisions may be made by sources other than ourselves .... which always gets me pretty excited -- wondering what those sources would be, or could it be the Earth itself? And we just may not be here if we just don't get it together.

Joshua: So you feel we have to the year 2000 to find a way to be more cooperative?

Thunder: 2000 or 2001 or if we go by the prophecies given in Central or South America, what would be 2011 (Joshua: 2012, 2013), yes 2012. Things are different, but the words are all the same. Times up. What we have is here at hand, we must deal with it.

Joshua: So what kinds of things or activities could people become involved with to help this process or to help others become aware of this process.

Thunder: I created a tape a long time ago that was called "Walk Your Talk". (And in this tape I share) If people could figure out how to get into their hearts and how to get out of their mind and to ground the massive amounts of knowledge that we have on hand and bring it down to basic every day living and learn how to live in a family again, in the tribe (this would help). Shamanism, as we were talking over dinner, is quite popular -- yes -- but the very bases of Shamanism is that the Shaman is there for the family or the tribe. I have seen hundreds of people come to receive a healing, or this or that and leave and just don't pay any mind to what was said because its not their shaman, so they can forget what they were told. So I guess what we need to do is to become communities again or tribes. (I don't know what else to say) -- how can we learn to live right when we don't know what right is? But I know that we have to get into the heart instead of (living within) the material (only), and quickly.

Joshua: Yes I think so. And you have also offered your ranch in Texas as a location to host the Wolf Song Gatherings. What kinds of activities and connections are occurring at these Gatherings?

Thunder: Well Wolf Song was a dream of Grandma Twylah (Grandma Twylah Nitsch, a part of the Seneca Wolf Clan) ... It started off as just a vision (1983) that she had to put out a call (to bring people together) and that the people who would respond, she felt would be people dedicated to Peace. And I had never really considered what my deep heart-felt feeling was as to why I am walking on this planet but, I know that trying to bring people together and to amend arguments and all that was always a part of my makeup. So when I went into Wolf Song and was named an elder, and later I asked her (Grandma Tyllah), "Why did you name me an Elder?". She replied, "Well haven't you always felt that this is what you are suppose to do?" And I replied, "Well kind of but you know you just don't know how to go about working together for peaceful purposes?". Then she reminded me that my birthday was on D-Day (2nd World War) and so I thought, that would be a good start right there. I think Edgar Cayce said that groups of souls would come in (be born now) ... Atlanteans returning to right the wrongs as the Pipe does for people.

Joshua: How success has the Wolf Song Gatherings been for bringing people together?

Thunder: Absolutely totally. Wolf Song I was in upstate New York and there was Thirty Eight (38) Elders. Wolf Song II was at our ranch (Horse Thunder Ranch) and there was Seventy (70) some elders that came together. Wolf Song III was in Australia and there was over Two Hundred (200) (Joshua: Wow) elders ... it was amazing. One Hundred Fifty (150) Aborigine Tribes were represented for the very first time. And then Four was when I went to the United Nations. Four was in our hearts because of the all comets that were hitting Jupiter -- it was felt that in itself was a meaningful event. Five was in Puerto Rico and I don't know how many were there, Fourty (40) or so wonderful elders. And Six was in our house, One Hundred and Eight (108) elders from all over the world. And Seven is going to be back up in Grandma's next year.

What I think is pretty interesting is that at Wolf Song this year, I received a call from the Dalai Lama. Now I was totally freaked out. (Horse: It wasn't him on the phone the first call.) It was from him first (Horse: It wasn't him on the phone ) ..Yes, it was ... I don't know if you ever knew that ... that first call was, I got to talk to him and then the second one was from his pupil Michael. That was something. Number Seven is the end of the vision ... she (Grandma Tyllah) forsaw seven visions and already the vision has been picked up and next year ('98) we will be going to Wales (UK) ... and '99 ... I forget, someone just told us. So it was like a level step up when we went to France (for the conference with the Dalai Lama) we are talking about World Peace. We were just talking about Native People getting together for the first time and it turned into all four races of people. Truly successful.

No arguing, no fighting ... molding joy and celebration as we were talking about. One of the things was that everyone had to tell a joke, share a prophecy, share some type of piece (of knowledge) that a person could take home and use in their lives. Very rarely do you get to see a vision like this. And Grandma has only been at one of the Gatherings and for Seven, were hoping, her home where the fighting going on with the Iroqui and Seneca Nations will not disrupt #7 from happening, right near the Harmonic Convergence (August 17th this year).

Joshua: After these Gatherings have finished, has their been any new projects created by the Elders who met or a continuation of the wonderful energies generated by the Gatherings?

Thunder: Well related to the planning for the Gathering for next year, alot of the Elders helped us make decisions for this Gathering and helped us out a lot. Like a lot of the Elders that came to Wolf Song VI, this year, paid their own way and helped us with food besides other wonderful people who also helped us. I mean it was amazing.

They haven't (created some joint projects) per say, like formed a committee or governing group because Grandma wanted to keep it out of politics. For example, there were no ceremonies at the gatherings. Even though there were some ... by some of the elders that came. I mean, how can you not share if an elder says "I want to do this". (Grandma asked this), so they wouldn't get into the ego.

But I know that the gatherings have helped a tremendous amount of people as we have received thousands of letters saying "Thank You" and "This changed my life". The last gathering was dedicated to the surival of the earth by sharing herbal secrets, and survival ideas (thoughts). And the main one being ... learning about yourself, or take yourself to the within (innerward) for all the knowledge that is needed for these times that we are going through.

Joshua:Ok, lets talk about the crystal skulls. You have actually had some crystal skulls at some of your gatherings. (Thunder: Yes) How did the Elders, from all over the world, who attended, react to the crystal skull(s) present?

Thunder: I have been with some crystal skulls. I met you back in 1988 and that was just the beginning of my journey with some of the (crystal) skulls. So we personally went around (had contact) with the skulls. We did ceremony with them, we worked with them. But coming into Wolf Song II, I begin to get nervous because the Native People are very superstitious. So, I remember calling Grandma Tyllah and I said to her, "Grams ... I have some lovely friends who have a crystal skull and one or two of them said they were going to come, and what is your feeling?" "I love it!", she said. And I said, "What if this goes against someone's personal tradition?" She said, "Well, tell them to settle down. Tell them it is a wonder, its an artifact and it should be there."

At Wolf Song II, "MAX" (The Texas Crystal Skull, JoAnn and Carl Parks, caretakers), was quiet the center of attention (I don't know how else to say that.) They (the Elders) loved him. They had never seen anything like 'MAX'. They all wanted to be photographed (with 'MAX'). We have the tape that tells their own views ( the video is entitled: 'MAX' - The 36,000 Year Old Crystal Skull, the Oldest Elder at Wolf Song II -- ) and you must welcome to transcribe that tape if you want to, and use some of those words. (Joshua: Gee Mary we already have -- to view a summary of what the Elders felt about 'MAX' click HERE ). Good, I didn't know. They were some wonderful words.

And I didn't meet any of the Elders that either didn't have another story about the skulls or their own feelings about the skulls ... but none of them expressed a dislike of the skull ... and there were more thank yous from people, thanking us. So this year, when we had the Gathering at our ranch, there were two of them. JoAnn brought 'MAX' back and were joined by Nick Nocerino and Sha-na-ra. And they were just swapped with people. We took a break and no one would leave, they would just stay sitting with the skulls. People, they were just in awe of the skulls. And they wanted to hear more about the skulls. Many healings were attributed to the skulls, many people who have been on the lands when the skulls were there -- you know they would say I had this and now its gone .. or I was sick, I couldn't think straight and now I can. A lot of magic, that's good.

Joshua: What was the general consensus from Elders who have attended the Gatherings and experienced the crystal skulls -- what did they thing the crystal skulls were about, their purpose and how might they be of benefit and assistance to humanity in our future?

Thunder: The overall thing I seem to be getting from people (and you guys can chip in if there is more) was that the skulls seems to enhance their energy, or clear their energy or add to their energy or empower them in some way. We had a lady that had wanted to do a meditation when the skull was there, because she felt that the energies would be something to contact the Space Elders. Everything again was positive. Alot of healing attributed especially to 'MAX', they could touch 'MAX' and be healed. Maybe (I say this) just because I have been around 'MAX' more, 'MAX' seems to be more beautiful. I certainly don't want to say anyone is better than the others.

Joshua: Did any of the Elders discuss at the Gatherings about other crystal skulls they were famailiar with, that possibly may have come from their part of the world?

Thunder: I believe in '92, an Aborigine Elder from Australia talked about skulls being in her country (Joshua: Yes, she talked about the crystal people from the stars). This year, Wolf Song VI, there were two elders who said they knew where another skull was in Mexico. And there was another elder talked about seeing a skull that was traveling I believe through Wyoming that wasn't the one talked about by these other two elders. Most of the Elders feel, like I feel, with I think this being a lot of confirmation here of the skulls being like computers, storing the most magnificient knowledge. Almost every elder I talked to said that they were from the Stars and Star People were behind them in some way, or a link to them, or that came from the Stars. Again its amazing that everything (with the skulls) was so well received and it was a blessing to have the skulls there.

Joshua: And how have the crystal skulls affected your life?

Thunder: Well I don't know. I know when I met you (1988), that was in the beginning of seeing a skull in the Sweat Lodge. And then having the priviledge of meeting Joann and her crystal skull 'MAX'. Right after meeting you, prior to meeting you, we had already seen the Mitchell-Hedges Crystal Skull.

You know, I tell the story of how 'MAX' has affected our lives is when Grandma asked me to do Wolf Song, there was absolutely nothing on the land, this was around the time of the Spring Equinox in April. And we setup a stick and a table, and put 'MAX' on it, and there was a beautiful Mayan Elder who came and sang and danced and we all sang, danced and prayed too. Come May 22nd, we had a structure with an awning on it and 78 elders in it and 500 people on the land. So it had to be divine intervention and we certainly give a lot of credit to 'MAX' for it, for that help, because it did become crystal clear right where he (or she, I don't which) was. It just manifested right around this and where it came from, we don't have a clue. We still have bills for Wolf Song II and now bills from Wolf Song VI, but they are not important in relationship to what we have seen and accomplished. So 'MAX' came out again, this year, the same time and started us going. And I don't have a clue again where everything came from but it certainly he was a big help to get us together again. I had to kid him that he just liked being around the elders so much that he brought it in from somewhere and he certainly did.

I have seen many healings with 'MAX'. You know I tell a story that one of our girls couldn't have a baby. In one of the sweat lodges we brought 'MAX' there and prayed for her and now she has a baby. And my own daughter-in-law had just had a mis-carriage, right here in Chicago actually. And we went home and it was time for 'MAX' to come in and we went into the sweat lodge and took the skull, as she was holding the skull next to myself and prayed for it, and knew it was going to be a girl. I have heard many things from 'MAX', like noises and seen lights, (I received) messages that just come in. Its a pretty amazing little crystal.

Just to finish this question, I would like to say that the skulls have changed my life personally. I don't even remember knowing what they were or knowing that I wanted to see one until I exactly had that opportunity. And then they have been like the most familiar things. When I saw 'MAX' the first time, Joann allowed us to come (to her home). I cried the whole time, it was just like an old friend, I just cried ... I don't know where the tears were coming from. With each one that I see, I am always amazed that they look like their owners. Maybe I am making this up. But I think Joann looks a little bit like 'MAX' and Nick Nocerino looks like Sha-na-ra, when he held it up ... I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not. I know that any sacred spiritual space or sacred item that comes into our lives, it certainly transforms something, I am grateful.

Joshua: So what is coming up for you in the future? You have more travels to come or are you working to setup your next Wolf Song Gathering?

Thunder: And what about the future? Well the future is interesting. I have to write more books, I don't know about what. I have to see what other things that are magnificent in the world that I can get involved in and try to make a difference in some way. I have been blessed with seeing my husband, sons and friends sundance and just recently my chief, my relation, made my husband and sons medicine men. So that feels like this piece is here and now I have some other pieces to do. And so right after that is when the call came for going to the Dalai Lama, who I have admired, I think, all of my life ... it is like a dream come true.

So, at least, we know that all over the world people are working on pieces of peace. Well I know that you have a dream to bring all the skulls together. (Joshua: Yes) I think that is a magnificient dream. So maybe if all of us could just listen to each other and empower each other dreams -- and wish for them and hope for them and dream for them ... I don't know what else to do. Just live spiritual twenty four hours a day, do what is right in front of me. Hadn't really thought about this.

Joshua: Is there any support or help you are seeking for some of your future projects?

Thunder: Well, I have talked with Standing Elk about his interest (Standing Elk is the founder of the Star Knowledge Conferences where the Native Americans have shared their knowledge about UFOs along with other well known UFO Researchers) to bring a Star Conference down our way. Which I love the Star Conference, I think it is a wonderful vision, a really wonderful vision (Joshua: If the Native American would be more willing to share what they know?) Its got to happen soon ... more has come out than I ever thought would, I am more amazed everyday.

I tell you a little UFO story (do we have time for that -- Joshua: Yes!!). I had one of my students, who just recently passed into Spirit actually -- Kira ... who wanted to go on a vision quest. Now Kira would always try to tell me a story about her being abducted and I won't listen to her because I had a concept that the UFO people were kind of airy-fairy and you know, everytime her son would open the door, they would be a UFO and we certainly have more grounded business to take care. So she tried to tell me her story but I wasn't listening, I really didn't want to hear it. So she went up for her vision quest (in XXXX Texas). And about fifteen minutes after, she went up, and I'm connected to each person (psychicly/spiritual) during the ceremony to each question. So if you get scared, I know you are sacred, so I can go and check on you. But she wasn't there ... there was no life force that was connected to me, it was hidden.

So her sister just happened to have drived her (here), so that was a little nerve wrecking ... as I think, I just lost her sister ... anyway, I said, so lets go up there and she wasn't on her blanket and there was no way she could have walked over there because she was on a rise, all around was nothing but scrub bushes, mesquite trees, cactus and rocks. So I became pretty concerned and I still couldn't say no to her sister so we come down and got into the car. Said we will drive on and were driving and we come up over this rise and pass this tree and there is this huge four football field ship. And I learned at her sister and she didn't act as she saw anything. So, I said so lets go on and I was sacred to see the ship. I don't believe I believed in UFOs, I was quite a skeptic. So we drove on by another tree and I saw something there, so I said "Back Up", so we backed up and there it was. So what is going on? I have never heard of anything like this. So I said "well I am going to go pray" so I got out and said (to Kira), you come back right now and then I kind of caught myself and thought, wait a minute, I saw the show "War of the Worlds" where they zap you out of the ship and I better be nice because this is a spaceship up here, so I said, please the lady her back.

So anyway I got back in (the car) and the next thing the sister said is "Is my sister on that ship?" I said "You Know?" She said, "Yes, I could tell she was gone, I was watching you up there and obviously I can see the spaceship". So there was about fifty or sixty or people there and they all saw the ship. And about eight or nine hours later, I heard this screaming like through other levels and that was her coming back in. So we went up and she was there. And she was taking her stuff out of the bag ... like she had just got there. And I said, "Rap it up, it's over" ... and she was arguing with me and said "What's the matter with you, I just got here?" "YEAH, and you're coming back home" .... So we came and talked and later she remembered everything single thing. And I would find out later, that it was ten years to the day, that she was taken before and they come back to do something else to her. Like repair damage that was done. And there were several other people who were taken when she was (before this time) but they were all dead now. So it was an amazing whole story in itself.

So after that vision quest, I called a couple of the elders after she left and they said well "Pray and then come down. As soon as the quest is done, don't do anything else, just come down." I said, "OK, I will". So I went down, they put me into a sweat lodge ... we all talked about it ... I did many prayers of forgiveness for my attitude of not believing people when they were talking (about their UFO experience) ... and so they (the elders) sang a song to me and then the lodge ended. And so I came out, I was sitting by the altar and I was thinking about all these things and the old man came out and he started singing that song again. Just then, this same ship came up over this hill. There you go ... They (the ETs have always been a part of us). So when I relaxed and then I would see these things, know these things. So maybe all of that is not out to the people but more and more is coming every day ... so that is why I honor Standing Elk so much for taking his vision and walking with it. So I just wanted to share that with you (Joshua: thank you) ... you're welcome.

Joshua: Any final messages to share ... ideas that you feel are important for people to keep in their minds?

Thunder: Well if people ... take these crystal skulls for an example. There are suppose to be thirteen that will come together some day, where I got that number I don't know ... but I have heard you say it ... and alot of people that have the skulls (mention this). This means that those thirteen people are going to have to get along, in some way, to bring them all together. The ceremonies right now and all the Indian People, it means that we all are going have to get along to come and do these big ceremonies for the Earth, whatever it is. You know the egos, the judgements, the attitudes ... you know that somewhere we are going to have to find that inner child again ... that the child-like excitement for what's around the corner and you know that one half of those crystal skulls are sitting all together and who's skull is going to be in the middle ... I don't know, you know what I mean .. its one of those kind of things. That isn't important ... what's important is that its happening. When I went to France, it wasn't important whether I talked or not ... what was important that the Dalia Lama had a dream and there were human beings there working to fulfill it. So I guess we have to dream again (Joshua: Yes indeed) ... and whatever the dreams are, work and fulfillment ... so I feel (empowered for you?) to think about your dreams tonight, and wish only good things for whoever you would share any of this with ... (Joshua: I will ...) Tachqusie ... I would like to see that blue skull one day, we'll see it some day huh ... (Joshua: I feel very strongly its coming soon) ... I hope we see it.



Mary Elizabeth Thunder is part Cheyenne, adopted Lakota & Irish. She spent the first halfe of her life as an administrator, wich included assistant to the Major of Indianapolis and an alcohol/drug specialist for American Indian service organizations. In 1981, Thunder suffered a heart attack and had an after-life experience. In response to this trauma and at the bidding of her Elders (Leonard Crow Dog, Wallace Black Elk, Grace Spotted Eagle and Rolling Thunder), Thunder left her job at the Dallas Inter-Tribal Center to begin life on the Road as a teacher, walking for over 9 years. She has now followed the sacred Pipe to Thunder-Horse Ranch where, she and her bhusband, Jeff "White Horse" Hubbell, have founded a Spiritual University, where they now live. Thunder attend Wolf Song I in 1991 as a Peace Elder and in 1992, during Wolf Song II, held at Thunder Horse Ranch, the Peace Elders Council designated their land as a Spiritual University. Thunder has supported all the other Wolf Song Events since then and again in October of 1996, she and her husband sponsored Wolf Song VI at their ranch. Thunder is the author of the book Thunder's Grace about Grace Spotted Eagle. Also through their company Blue Star, Inc. / Blue Star Services, INc., they publish their quarterly newsletter Thunder News which always includes announcements about the upcoming Wolf Song Gatherings.

To contact Mary Thunder, you can reach her at:

Thunder Horse Ranch
Attn: Mary Thunder
1700 Makinson Road,
Rt.1, Box 873,
West Point, Texas 78963
Phone: 409-242-5474; Fax: 409-242-5247
Web Site:

Wolf Song II
Indigenous Spirituality
Home Page

VJ Enterprises
Attn: Joshua "Illinois" Shapiro
9737 Fox Glen Dr. #1K
Niles, IL 60714, USA
(954) 208-6665