Interview with Thunder
( June 2nd, 1997, Northwest Suburb of Chicago )
Joshua: Hello Mary Thunder, nice to see you again.
Do you like to be called Mary Thunder or Thunder?
Thunder: Just Thunder.
Joshua: OK. Thunder, can you just briefly share who you are,
some of your background and what is your current focus,
at this time, or what you feel is important.
Thunder: My name is Mary Elisabeth Thunder. And
since the late '60's, I have been (running my own
hoops?). However in 1980, my life took a different turn,
I had a heart attack. This was prophecised by one of
my chiefs. A week later I had the heart attack, so when
I came back (back from where?) and I said that from then
on I would literally sun-dance to thank the creator for
my life and share my experience with others.
I guess my focus right now Joshua is (working on my?)
awareness, remembering and have tremendously strong
and extensive ideas of trying to bring people together
in unity. ( Only in what this word copies ?) that there
be such a thing. So that's mostly what I am doing now.
I am a sun-dancer. I was named a Peace Elder in 1991
and at this point in my life I was (nominated?) as a delagate
to the United Nations. And just recently I returned from
France where I was a head delagate for the spiritual (human?)
which was headed up by the Dalai Lama and had representatives
from all over the world and many of the world's religions.
(This conference) was focusing on his dream now, which was
to bring all the spiritual people together from all the different
religions in the hope that we can learn how to get along and
get out of judgement of each other.
Joshua: What happened in France at this conference
with the Dalia Lama and the other people who participated?
Thunder: I would imagine there was nearly 75-80 delegates
from Catholism to Sufi to Buddhist, to all the major world
religions (who attended). (Really) for the first time, the indigenous people from
Asia, Africa, really all the five continents, through however (the circumstances)
we got together and we were invited and ended up a delegate of the United States.
And I was chosen because I am not a full blooded (Native American), but I am
trained in my ways as I am a Sun Dancer and of course I am part Indian, but
not full blood. So they felt I could be open to all of the various tribes
(Native American) here in the United States. Next year I am working on a
committee for human rights and issues for women and that is pretty exciting.
Joshua: Thunder, since you have developed contacts with many
Native Americans, what do you feel is the message the Native Americans
wish to communicate to the rest of the world in regards to their sensing
of events that maybe coming up in our future?
Thunder: Well the prophecies themselves especially taking a look
at the Hopi Prophecy, which is a pretty amazing prophecy if we follow it
to the Lakota and the birth of the White Buffalo which was, I believe was
on July 20th, 1994. And if we just come on right on through all the
religions, for example, we just heard a prophecy from the man who is the
head of Voodoo on the planet who shares the same prophecy, they all
say the same words. That we have to become One Mind, One Heart and
get it together before the new millenium or decisions may be made
by sources other than ourselves .... which always gets me pretty excited
-- wondering what those sources would be, or could it be the Earth itself?
And we just may not be here if we just don't get it together.
Joshua: So you feel we have to the year 2000 to find a way to be
Thunder: 2000 or 2001 or if we go by the prophecies given in Central
or South America, what would be 2011 (Joshua: 2012, 2013), yes 2012.
Things are different,
but the words are all the same. Times up. What we have is here at hand,
we must deal with it.
Joshua: So what kinds of things or activities could people become
involved with to help this process or to help others become aware of this
Thunder: I created a tape a long time ago that was called "Walk Your
Talk". (And in this tape I share) If people could figure out how to get
into their hearts and how to get out of their mind and to ground the massive
amounts of knowledge that we have on hand and bring it down to basic every day
living and learn how to live in a family again, in the tribe (this would help).
Shamanism, as we were talking over dinner, is quite popular -- yes -- but the
very bases of Shamanism is that the Shaman is there for the family or the
tribe. I have seen hundreds of people come to receive a healing, or this or
that and leave and just don't pay any mind to what was said because its not their
shaman, so they can forget what they were told. So I guess what we need to
do is to become communities again or tribes. (I don't know what else to say) --
how can we learn to live right when we don't know what right is? But I know
that we have to get into the heart instead of (living within) the material
(only), and quickly.
Joshua: Yes I think so. And you have also offered your ranch
in Texas as a location to host the Wolf Song Gatherings. What kinds of
activities and connections are occurring at these Gatherings?
Thunder: Well Wolf Song was a dream of Grandma Twylah (Grandma Twylah
Nitsch, a part of the Seneca Wolf Clan) ... It started
off as just a vision (1983) that she had to put out a call (to bring people together)
and that the people who would respond, she felt would be people
dedicated to Peace. And I had never really considered what my deep heart-felt
feeling was as to why I am walking on this planet but, I know that trying to
bring people together and to amend arguments and all that was always a part
of my makeup. So when I went into Wolf Song and was named an elder, and later
I asked her (Grandma Tyllah), "Why did you name me an Elder?". She replied,
"Well haven't you always felt that this is what you are suppose to do?" And
I replied, "Well kind of but you know you just don't know how to go about
working together for peaceful purposes?". Then she reminded me that my
birthday was on D-Day (2nd World War) and so I thought, that would be a
good start right there. I think Edgar Cayce said that groups of souls
would come in (be born now) ... Atlanteans returning to right the wrongs
as the Pipe does for people.
Joshua: How success has the Wolf Song Gatherings been for bringing
Thunder: Absolutely totally. Wolf Song I was in upstate New York
and there was Thirty Eight (38) Elders. Wolf Song II was at our ranch
(Horse Thunder Ranch) and there was Seventy (70) some elders that came
together. Wolf Song III was in Australia and there was over Two Hundred
(200) (Joshua: Wow) elders ... it was amazing. One Hundred Fifty (150)
Aborigine Tribes were represented for the very first time. And then Four
was when I went to the United Nations. Four was in our hearts because of
the all comets that were hitting Jupiter -- it was felt that in itself
was a meaningful event. Five was in Puerto Rico and I don't know how
many were there, Fourty (40) or so wonderful elders. And Six was in our
house, One Hundred and Eight (108) elders from all over the world. And
Seven is going to be back up in Grandma's next year.
What I think is pretty interesting is that at Wolf Song this year, I received
a call from the Dalai Lama. Now I was totally freaked out. (Horse: It
wasn't him on the phone the first call.) It was from him first (Horse: It
wasn't him on the phone ) ..Yes, it was ... I don't know if you ever knew
that ... that first call was, I got to talk to him and then the second one
was from his pupil Michael. That was something. Number Seven is the end
of the vision ... she (Grandma Tyllah) forsaw seven visions and already
the vision has been picked up and next year ('98) we will be going to
Wales (UK) ... and '99 ... I forget, someone just told us. So it was
like a level step up when we went to France (for the conference with
the Dalai Lama) ...now we are talking about World Peace. We were just
talking about Native People getting together for the first time and it
turned into all four races of people. Truly successful.
No arguing, no fighting ... molding joy and celebration as we were talking
about. One of the things was that everyone had to tell a joke, share
a prophecy, share some type of piece (of knowledge) that a person could
take home and use in their lives. Very rarely do you get to see a vision
like this. And Grandma has only been at one of the Gatherings and for
Seven, were hoping, her home where the fighting going on with the
Iroqui and Seneca Nations will not disrupt #7 from happening, right near the
Harmonic Convergence (August 17th this year).
Joshua: After these Gatherings have finished, has their been
any new projects created by the Elders who met or a continuation of the
wonderful energies generated by the Gatherings?
Thunder: Well related to the planning for the Gathering
for next year, alot of the Elders helped us make decisions for this
Gathering and helped us out a lot. Like a lot of the Elders that
came to Wolf Song VI, this year, paid their own way and helped us
with food besides other wonderful people who also helped us. I mean
it was amazing.
They haven't (created some joint projects) per say, like formed a
committee or governing group because Grandma wanted to keep it out
of politics. For example, there were no ceremonies at the gatherings.
Even though there were some ... by some of the elders that came. I
mean, how can you not share if an elder says "I want to do this".
(Grandma asked this), so they wouldn't get into the ego.
But I know that the gatherings have helped a tremendous amount of
people as we have received thousands of letters saying "Thank You"
and "This changed my life". The last gathering was dedicated to
the surival of the earth by sharing herbal secrets, and survival
ideas (thoughts). And the main one being ... learning about yourself,
or take yourself to the within (innerward) for all the knowledge that is needed
for these times that we are going through.
Joshua:Ok, lets talk about the crystal skulls. You have actually
had some crystal skulls at some of your gatherings. (Thunder: Yes) How
did the Elders, from all over the world, who attended, react to the
crystal skull(s) present?
Thunder: I have been with some crystal skulls. I met you back
in 1988 and that was just the beginning of my journey with some of the
(crystal) skulls. So we personally went around (had contact) with the
skulls. We did ceremony with them, we worked with them. But coming into
Wolf Song II, I begin to get nervous because the Native People are
very superstitious. So, I remember calling Grandma Tyllah and I said to her,
"Grams ... I have some lovely friends who have a crystal skull and one or
two of them said they were going to come, and what is your feeling?" "I love
it!", she said. And I said, "What if this goes against someone's personal
tradition?" She said, "Well, tell them to settle down. Tell them it is a wonder,
its an artifact and it should be there."
At Wolf Song II, "MAX" (The Texas Crystal Skull, JoAnn and Carl Parks, caretakers),
was quiet the center of attention (I don't know how else to say that.) They
(the Elders) loved him. They had never seen anything like 'MAX'. They all
wanted to be photographed (with 'MAX'). We have the tape that tells their
own views ( the video is entitled: 'MAX' - The 36,000 Year Old Crystal Skull, the
Oldest Elder at Wolf Song II -- ) and you must welcome to transcribe that tape
if you want to, and use some of those words. (Joshua: Gee Mary we already
have -- to view
a summary of what the Elders felt about 'MAX' click
HERE ). Good, I didn't know. They were some wonderful words.
And I didn't meet any of the Elders that either didn't have another story about the
skulls or their own feelings about the skulls ... but none of them expressed
a dislike of the skull ... and there were more thank yous from people, thanking
us. So this year, when we had the Gathering at our ranch, there were two
of them. JoAnn brought 'MAX' back and were joined by Nick Nocerino and
Sha-na-ra. And they were just swapped with people. We took a break and no one
would leave, they would just stay sitting with the skulls.
People, they were just in awe of the skulls. And they wanted to hear more
about the skulls. Many healings were attributed to the skulls, many people
who have been on the lands when the skulls were there -- you know they would
say I had this and now its gone .. or I was sick, I couldn't think straight
and now I can. A lot of magic, that's good.
Joshua: What was the general consensus from Elders who have attended
the Gatherings and experienced the crystal skulls -- what did they thing
the crystal skulls were about, their purpose and how might they be of
benefit and assistance to humanity in our future?
Thunder: The overall thing I seem to be getting from people
(and you guys can chip in if there is more) was that the skulls seems to
enhance their energy, or clear their energy or add to their energy or
empower them in some way. We had a lady that had wanted to do a meditation
when the skull was there, because she felt that the energies would be
something to contact the Space Elders. Everything again was positive.
Alot of healing attributed especially to 'MAX', they could touch 'MAX'
and be healed. Maybe (I say this) just because I have been around
'MAX' more, 'MAX' seems to be more beautiful. I certainly don't want
to say anyone is better than the others.
Joshua: Did any of the Elders discuss at the Gatherings about
other crystal skulls they were famailiar with, that possibly may have
come from their part of the world?
Thunder: I believe in '92, an Aborigine Elder from Australia talked
about skulls being in her country (Joshua: Yes, she talked about the
crystal people from the stars). This year, Wolf Song VI, there were two
elders who said they knew where another skull was in Mexico. And there
was another elder talked about seeing a skull that was traveling I believe
through Wyoming that wasn't the one talked about by these other two elders.
Most of the Elders feel, like I feel, with I think this being a lot of
confirmation here of the skulls being like computers, storing the most
magnificient knowledge. Almost every elder I talked to said that
they were from the Stars and Star People were behind them in some way, or a
link to them, or that came from the Stars. Again its amazing that everything
(with the skulls) was so well received and it was a blessing to have the
Joshua: And how have the crystal skulls affected your life?
Thunder: Well I don't know. I know when I met you (1988), that
was in the beginning of seeing a skull in the Sweat Lodge. And then having
the priviledge of meeting Joann and her crystal skull 'MAX'. Right after
meeting you, prior to meeting you, we had already seen the Mitchell-Hedges
You know, I tell the story of how 'MAX' has affected our lives is when
Grandma asked me to do Wolf Song, there was absolutely nothing on the land,
this was around the time of the Spring Equinox in April. And we setup a stick
and a table, and put 'MAX' on it, and there was a beautiful Mayan Elder who
came and sang and danced and we all sang, danced and prayed too. Come May 22nd,
we had a structure with an awning on it and 78 elders in it and 500 people
on the land. So it had to be divine intervention and we certainly give a lot
of credit to 'MAX' for it, for that help, because it did become crystal
clear right where he (or she, I don't which) was. It just manifested
right around this and where it came from, we don't have a clue. We still
have bills for Wolf Song II and now bills from Wolf Song VI, but they are
not important in relationship to what we have seen and accomplished. So 'MAX'
came out again, this year, the same time and started us going. And I don't
have a clue again where everything came from but it certainly he was a big
help to get us together again. I had to kid him that he just liked being
around the elders so much that he brought it in from somewhere and
he certainly did.
I have seen many healings with 'MAX'. You know I tell a story that one of
our girls couldn't have a baby. In one of the sweat lodges we brought
'MAX' there and prayed for her and now she has a baby. And my own
daughter-in-law had just had a mis-carriage, right here in Chicago actually.
And we went home and it was time for 'MAX' to come in and we went into
the sweat lodge and took the skull, as she was holding the skull next
to myself and prayed for it, and knew it was going to be a girl.
I have heard many things from 'MAX', like noises and seen lights,
(I received) messages that just come in. Its a pretty amazing little
Just to finish this question, I would like to say that the skulls have
changed my life personally. I don't even remember knowing what they were
or knowing that I wanted to see one until I exactly had that opportunity.
And then they have been like the most familiar things. When I saw 'MAX'
the first time, Joann allowed us to come (to her home). I cried the
whole time, it was just like an old friend, I just cried ... I don't know
where the tears were coming from. With each one that I see, I am always
amazed that they look like their owners. Maybe I am making this up.
But I think Joann looks a little bit like 'MAX' and Nick Nocerino
looks like Sha-na-ra, when he held it up ... I don't know if that has
anything to do with it or not. I know that any sacred spiritual space
or sacred item that comes into our lives, it certainly transforms something,
I am grateful.
Joshua: So what is coming up for you in the future? You have
more travels to come or are you working to setup your next Wolf Song
Thunder: And what about the future? Well the future is interesting.
I have to write more books, I don't know about what. I have to see what
other things that are magnificent in the world that I can get involved in
and try to make a difference in some way. I have been blessed with seeing
my husband, sons and friends sundance and just recently my chief, my relation,
made my husband and sons medicine men. So that feels like this piece is
here and now I have some other pieces to do. And so right after that is
when the call came for going to the Dalai Lama, who I have admired, I think,
all of my life ... it is like a dream come true.
So, at least, we know that all over the world people are working on
pieces of peace. Well I know that you have a dream to bring all the skulls
together. (Joshua: Yes) I think that is a magnificient dream. So maybe
if all of us could just listen to each other and empower each other dreams
-- and wish for them and hope for them and dream for them ... I don't know
what else to do. Just live spiritual twenty four hours a day, do what is
right in front of me. Hadn't really thought about this.
Joshua: Is there any support or help you are seeking for some
of your future projects?
Thunder: Well, I have talked with Standing Elk about his interest
(Standing Elk is the founder of the Star Knowledge Conferences
where the Native Americans have shared their knowledge about UFOs along with
other well known UFO Researchers) to bring a Star Conference down our way. Which
I love the Star Conference, I think it is a wonderful vision, a really wonderful
vision (Joshua: If the Native American would be more willing to share what they
know?) Its got to happen soon ... more has come out than I ever thought would,
I am more amazed everyday.
I tell you a little UFO story (do we have time for that -- Joshua: Yes!!). I had
one of my students, who just recently passed into Spirit actually -- Kira ... who
wanted to go on a vision quest. Now Kira would always try to tell me a story about
her being abducted and I won't listen to her because I had a concept that the UFO
people were kind of airy-fairy and you know, everytime her son would open the door,
they would be a UFO and we certainly have more grounded business to take care.
So she tried to tell me her story but I wasn't listening, I really didn't want
to hear it. So she went up for her vision quest (in XXXX Texas). And about fifteen
minutes after, she went up, and I'm connected to each person (psychicly/spiritual)
during the ceremony to each question. So if you get scared, I know you are sacred,
so I can go and check on you. But she wasn't there ... there was no life force
that was connected to me, it was hidden.
So her sister just happened to have drived her (here), so that was a little nerve
wrecking ... as I think, I just lost her sister ... anyway, I said, so lets go up there
and she wasn't on her blanket and there was no way she could have walked over there
because she was on a rise, all around was nothing but scrub bushes, mesquite trees,
cactus and rocks. So I became pretty concerned and I still couldn't say no to her
sister so we come down and got into the car. Said we will drive on and were
driving and we come up over this rise and pass this tree and there is this
huge four football field ship. And I learned at her sister and she didn't
act as she saw anything. So, I said so lets go on and I was sacred to see
the ship. I don't believe I believed in UFOs, I was quite a skeptic. So we
drove on by another tree and I saw something there, so I said "Back Up",
so we backed up and there it was. So what is going on? I have never heard
of anything like this. So I said "well I am going to go pray"
so I got out and said (to Kira), you come back right now and then I kind of caught
myself and thought, wait a minute, I saw the show "War of the Worlds" where they
zap you out of the ship and I better be nice because this is a spaceship up here,
so I said, please the lady her back.
So anyway I got back in (the car) and the next thing the sister said is "Is my
sister on that ship?" I said "You Know?" She said, "Yes, I could tell she
was gone, I was watching you up there and obviously I can see the spaceship".
So there was about fifty or sixty or people there and they all saw the ship.
And about eight or nine hours later, I heard this screaming like through
other levels and that was her coming back in. So we went up and
she was there. And she was taking her stuff out of the bag ... like she had
just got there. And I said, "Rap it up, it's over" ... and she was
arguing with me and said "What's the matter with you, I just got here?"
"YEAH, and you're coming back home" .... So we came and talked and later
she remembered everything single thing. And I would find out later, that it
was ten years to the day, that she was taken before and they come back to do
something else to her. Like repair damage that was done. And there were
several other people who were taken when she was (before this time) but they
were all dead now. So it was an amazing whole story in itself.
So after that vision quest, I called a couple of the elders after she left
and they said well "Pray and then come down. As soon as the quest is done,
don't do anything else, just come down." I said, "OK, I will". So I went
down, they put me into a sweat lodge ... we all talked about it ... I did
many prayers of forgiveness for my attitude of not believing people
when they were talking (about their UFO experience) ... and so they
(the elders) sang a song to me and then the lodge ended. And so I came out,
I was sitting by the altar and I was thinking about all these things and
the old man came out and he started singing that song again. Just then,
this same ship came up over this hill. There you go ... They
(the ETs have always been a part of us). So when I relaxed and then I
would see these things, know these things. So maybe all of that is not
out to the people but more and more is coming every day ... so that is
why I honor Standing Elk so much for taking his vision and walking with it.
So I just wanted to share that with you (Joshua: thank you) ... you're
Joshua: Any final messages to share ... ideas that you feel are
important for people to keep in their minds?
Thunder: Well if people ... take these crystal skulls for an example.
There are suppose to be thirteen that will come together some day, where I got
that number I don't know ... but I have heard you say it ... and alot of people
that have the skulls (mention this). This means that those thirteen people are going to
have to get along, in some way, to bring them all together. The ceremonies
right now and all the Indian People, it means that we all are going
have to get along to come and do these big ceremonies for the Earth, whatever
it is. You know the egos, the judgements, the attitudes ... you know that somewhere
we are going to have to find that inner child again ... that the child-like
excitement for what's around the corner and you know that one half of those
crystal skulls are sitting all together and who's skull is going to be in the
middle ... I don't know, you know what I mean .. its one of those kind of things.
That isn't important ... what's important is that its happening. When I went to
France, it wasn't important whether I talked or not ... what was important that the
Dalia Lama had a dream and there were human beings there working to fulfill it.
So I guess we have to dream again (Joshua: Yes indeed) ... and whatever the
dreams are, work and fulfillment ... so I feel (empowered for you?) to think about
your dreams tonight, and wish only good things for whoever you would share any
of this with ... (Joshua: I will ...) Tachqusie ... I would like to see that blue
skull one day, we'll see it some day huh ... (Joshua: I feel very strongly its
coming soon) ... I hope we see it.